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UFC on FOX 5 Results: Benson Henderson retains lightweight title with impressive win over Nate Diaz

UFC on FOX 5 PosterThe UFC’s relationship with FOX has produced some solid efforts thus far but none as impressive as tonight’s ambitious offering, as UFC on FOX 5 boasted a number of bouts worth watching including three tilts on the main card worthy of co-headlining/headlining status on PPV. The show featured former champions B.J. Penn and Mauricio Rua in respective rumbles, with each taking on a top contender, while lightweight title-holder Benson Henderson put his belt on the line against well-rounded challenger Nate Diaz in the evening’s main event.

Rua and Penn both fell with Alexander Gustafsson and Rory MacDonald earning the victories. Gustafsson outpointed “Shogun” with crisp striking and solid submission-defense, battling off a few early attacks on his legs. Meanwhile, MacDonald outclassed Penn from start to finish, taking home a relatively easy Unanimous Decision win.

In headlining action, Henderson put on one of his most impressive performances to date if not #1, handling Diaz throughout the entire effort. “Bendo” took Diaz down a handful of times, landing some solid strikes, and picked him apart while standing to boot. The triumph marked Henderson’s second successful defense of the divisional strap.

Read below for a full list of UFC on FOX 5 results:

Dennis Siver def. Nam Phan via Unanimous Decision

Scott Jorgensen def. John Albert via submission Round 1 (Rear-Naked Choke)

Abel Trujillo def. Marcus LeVesseur via TKO Round 2 (Strikes)

Daron Cruickshank def. Henry Martinez via Knockout Round 1 (Head Kick)

Ramsey Nijem def. Joe Proctor via Unanimous Decision

Raphael Assuncao def. Mike Easton via Unanimous Decision

Yves Edwards def. Jeremy Stephens via TKO Round 1 (Strikes)

Matt Brown def. Mike Swick via Knockout Round 2 (Strikes)

Rory MacDonald def. B.J. Penn via Unanimous Decision

Alexander Gustafsson def. Mauricio Rua via Unanimous Decision

Benson Henderson © def. Nate Diaz via Unanimous Decision

  • AlphaOmega says:

    Whats with the copyright symbol after Henderson’s name? Predictions:

    Jeremy Stephens
    Mike Swick
    B.J. Penn
    Alexander Gustafsson
    Benson Henderson

  • sides666 says:


  • AlphaOmega says:

    I want to clarify something though, I WANT Yves to win..but I don’t think he will..but I’ll be happy if he does.

  • MCM says:

    Yves Edwards
    Mike Swick
    Rory MacDonald
    Alexander Gustafsson
    Benson Henderson

    All by finish except for Bendo by Dec.

  • Richard Stabone says:


    Should be a damn good night of fights.

  • Richard Stabone says:

    It’s so hit & miss when they stream fights on facebook… last event was great, now it doesn’t seem to be working at all. Anybody else having issues finding the prelims via FB?

  • Richard Stabone says:

    ^ I guess there was only one dang fight on FB this time… FX for the rest.

  • Dufresne says:

    I wouldn’t give Siver/Pham Fight of the Night, but he’s got my vote for Mauling of the Night so far. Siver looks like a pale, miniature Hulk at 145.

  • Dufresne says:

    30-24??? I can see 30-26 and maybe even 30-25, but I can’t see giving all three rounds a 10-8. Makes me nervous about the judging for the evening.

  • Richard Stabone says:

    30-24? Yeah, I’d say that was a mauling.

  • Richard Stabone says:

    I think 10-8 rounds should be given more often than they are but 30-24 was a bit extreme. Anybody recall another fight with a 30-24 scoring??

  • Dufresne says:

    Now this is a fight!

  • Dufresne says:

    The only other fight I can think of that had a judge score it 30-24 was Nate Quarry v Kalib Starnes. And in that fight I think one of the judges actually scored it 30-27.

  • Dufresne says:

    That was one hell of a debut. To stuff a guy who went undefeated in collegiate wrestling is impressive. To stuff him repeatedly, put him on his back, and smash him like that is unbelievable. So much for Octagon Jitters.

  • Richard Stabone says:

    Trujillo definitely impressed. Way more cardio than you’d expect with that physique. Granted it didn’t even make it 2 full rounds but that was a grueling opening round, then he spent about a round’s worth of action throwing bombs..and looked fresh at the end.

  • Richard Stabone says:

    Trujillo is 29 yrs old but only made his MMA debut 2 yrs ago. Maybe it was mentioned during the broadcast but what’s this dude’s athletic background?

  • Dufresne says:

    That kid is tough as hell. I have no idea how he was standing after that kick to the face.

  • Dufresne says:

    Holy shit!!! It’s going to take a hell of a KO to steal KO of the Night from that!

  • Dufresne says:

    Great sportsmanship from Cruickshank by not following that kick up with some unnecessary ground shots.

  • Dufresne says:

    Trujillo is 29 yrs old but only made his MMA debut 2 yrs ago. Maybe it was mentioned during the broadcast but what’s this dude’s athletic background?

    I think they said he was a 4 time NAIA All American wrestler. I had to look up his stats, he’s now 10-4 in MMA. And for some reason I didn’t realize he was a lightweight. That guy is jacked as hell for 155lbs.

  • Dufresne says:

    This is one hell of an under card. Hopefully the main card can keep it up.

  • Richard Stabone says:

    A year ago I would have picked Lil Heathen to beat Yves, but unfortunately he’s on a downward spiral both in & out of the cage. Way too much distraction in his life to pick him to win tonight. Probably a mostly wasted career.

  • Richard Stabone says:

    I wonder what Dan Henderson thinks watching this at home as they talk about how Dana White is rambling on about how the Gustafsson-Shogun will “definitely” be the #1 contender to Jon Jones’ belt.

  • darth_irritable says:

    Wow. Swick landed hard.

  • darth_irritable says:

    MacDonald’s bacne is very distracting.

  • Richard Stabone says:

    Well that played out as expected. Props to BJ for surviving.

    Rory would tear up Nick Diaz. Hendricks might challenge him. And of course the Condit rematch will be epic… hope that’s next.

  • Richard Stabone says:

    Great post-fight interview. I love this kid.

  • darth_irritable says:

    I don’t normally jump on the steroid bandwagon, but Rory really is beginning to look like a gearhead.

  • Richard Stabone says:

    Bacne…gear head…roid allegations? Darth, you sound petty. Keep it real, mang.

  • Richard Stabone says:

    I do not agree Shogun has to get the fight to the ground… I think he’ll get inside and finish the fight on the feet.

  • Richard Stabone says:

    Pretty good scrap between Shogun & Alex. I thought the old warrior would catch the young buck, but the Gustafsson victory definitely keeps things more interesting in the LHW division. Alex didn’t show anything tonight that would threaten JBJ–and the “long” Gustafsson would be at an 8 inch reach disadvantage against Jones–but it’s at least a fresh challenger.

  • Richard Stabone says:

    But are we going to go along with Dana White and actually pretend that Gustafsson is the deserving #1 contender over Dan Henderson? That’s silly.

    But if Hendo loses to Machida (which would spoil the Hendo-JBJ fight we’ve all wanted to see, as a potential passing of the torch matchup… thank you DW) I suppose you can argue Alex should get the shot ahead of Lyoto, but that would still be iffy. A win over Hendo would almost certainly be more convincing than Gustafsson’s solid but unspectacular performance tonight.

  • Is it just me or is the young guard just not trying to finish tonight? Both Alex and Rory couldve easily put their opponents away

  • darth_irritable says:

    Richard – I’ve trained and fought with gearheads before, and that bacne looks very very familiar…. *cough cough* deca *cough*

  • Richard Stabone says:

    superdave – As far as the lack of finishes, I was impressed with Rory’s composure, completely picking apart BJ with a nice balance of ferocious attack without needlessly opening himself up, but in the Gustafsson fight I just never got the vibe he was capable of finishing off Rua.

    darth – I had bacne in college, and creatine was the upper scale of my PED use. Rory might be a major juicer but your baseless accusations come across as very petty.

  • Is it just me or is the young guard just not trying to finish tonight? Both Alex and Rory couldve easily put their opponents away but coasted instead.

    Here we go, lightweight title on the line! Love both these guys but I’m gonna stand by the central valley! 209 Lets go Nate!

  • Oops sorry about the half double post

  • darth_irritable says:

    I suspect Dong Hyun Kim would probably side with me, but how about we just agree to disagree on Rory.

  • Richard Stabone says:

    Jeez this isn’t even competitive.

  • Richard Stabone says:

    Round 3 is a 10-8 round based on tonight’s judges.

  • darth_irritable says:

    I feared Diaz would win, but this is very heartening. Bendo gets much respect.

  • Richard Stabone says:

    Only question at this point is who gave Nate the worse beatdown – Rory or Bendo?

  • Richard Stabone says:

    Turned out to be a terribly one-sided main event, which probably wasn’t pleasing to the masses, but for those familiar with the intentionally disrespectful antics of the Diaz bros, it was quite fitting.

    If GSP gets his wish, Nick is next. And then the Cesar Gracie camp is pretty much in the shitter.

  • Richard Stabone says:

    Does anyone doubt that a GSP-Diaz matchup would be similar, with Nick scrambling off his back trying to avoid ground & pound?

    Oh well, let it happen.

  • Richard Stabone says:

    OK, I’ll give the Diaz bros a break and recognize what Nate was able to do… he showed up on TUF not all that long ago as a skinny turd & younger bro of established MMA fighter Nick Diaz. I figured he was riding the coat tails of his older bro.

    But fast forward a few years and Nate has absolutely surpassed his brother, earning a headlining bout on a network TV card, thru hard work & beating some tough fighters & doing his part as a professional. Well done, Nate.

  • qat says:

    well i dont need a nick – gsp fight right now. it would go like this one (which is a compliment for bendo) and nick doesnt even deserve it..

  • Dr.Stoppage says:

    Although bad ass Rory Mac called out Carlos Condit, I think the fight to make right now is Rory vs. Nick Diaz.
    And ideally GSP can put his need to fight Diaz on the backburner for now, and focus on Hendricks.
    I don’t know, however it plays out , I wanna see Rory vs.Nick before the end of 2013.
    If fact, I thought that’s who he was gonna call out during his post fight interview.

  • Dr.Stoppage says:

    It was funny watching Brown doing his ” Where’s Joe Rogan?”, after his big win.
    Come on UFC, the man deserved an interview on national TV after his big KO on national TV!

  • climbarock says:

    My goddamn DVR didn’t record the prelims, and unfortunately it sounds like those were the best fights of the night.

    In any case, I thought the performances of Rory, Gustafsson, and Bendo were all solid but so one-sided they were almost boring to watch. Almost. All the betting favorites just cruised to UD’s. More competitive matches would have been nice.

    I’d like to see: Gustafsson v JBJ, Rory v Hendricks, and Bendo v Gil Melendez (best fight on the Caesar Gracie team, BTW).

  • elsicilian says:

    @Richard Stabone – I get your point that bacne is not incontrovertible evidence of steroid use; but it’s certainly a strong indicator. Meanwhile, PED abuse is undeniably rampant in MMA, his gym (Tristar) has a questionable reputation, and Rory has grown visibly larger in a relatively short period of time. So the circumstantial evidence against Rory is actually pretty significant.

    I respect your right to personally reserve judgment in this (or any other) case, and it’s certainly possible that Rory is clean, he just happens to have bacne, and he just happens to have had a recent growth spurt, and he’s actually one of the few clean competitors in a sport where the prohibitive majority of fighters use PEDs (according to anecdotal evidence from guys like Dennis Hallman, Cheick Congo, Dong Hyun Kim, Josh Barnett and countless others). It’s possible.

    But I don’t think darth’s conclusion is especially far-flung or unreasonable, much less petty; to the contrary, it seems to be the MOST LIKELY conclusion. Remember, “innocent until proven guilty” is the evidentiary standard of the criminal courts (thankfully), not the court of public opinion, and certainly not the court of common sense.

  • AlphaOmega says:

    I had to work on our building with my friend last night, from 4-11:30 (that’s what we get for not being organized), so he DVR’ed the fights..except he was running late so he just went by the guide, so it stopped recording 2 mins into the Diaz/Henderson fight. But the other fights were pretty good, except for the Rory/Penn, ya Rory dominated him completely, but he dominated a guy who was retired for the past 2 yrs and was very fat before training for the fight, not impressive to me.

  • Niv says:

    I don’t understand why so many here still want to pump the steroid allegations with Rory MacDonald?

    Didn’t BJ Penn challenge Rory to go through a testing program throughout their entire training camps up to the fight?

    Didn’t Rory and BJ comply with that program? If this is the case and I believe it is, and if they continue to come out clean after last nights test how can anyone bring this up as a legitimate concern?

    Also I see elsiclian say Tri Star has a well known reputation so there’s circumstantial evidence here. What reputation is that? Aside from allegations made by fighters embarrassed by fighters like GSP I’ve never heard of one of them getting busted with PEDs.

    I sure hope you’re not a judge because this type of testimony in a court of law would be laughed out of court; yet in mma circles circumstantial evidence and hearsay is the norm for taking away others accomplishments.

    This is sounding more like hating for the sake of hating.

    Rory MacDonald has shown to this point in his career to be a very professional athlete and I expect him to be wearing UFC Gold in the near future.

    I for one wish him well and I’d love to see him and Condit get re-acquainted.

  • Niv says:

    elsicilian, I should have added:

    Common sense in itself would read if the guy is being randomly tested and passes then he’s clean.

    Public opinion on the other hand factors things in like, I don’t like his hair, oh he has pimples, he’s white or black or hispanic, etc., etc. Public opinion get formed in a lot of ways and jealousy is another reason, some people hate seeing someone become a success young while they struggle through life for their achievements.

  • Richard Stabone says:

    If I had my way…

    GSP vs. Hendricks
    Condit vs. Rory
    Diaz vs. Ellenberger

    Call me crazy, but I believe Diaz should have to earn a title shot by actually beating a top WW contender.

  • MCM says:

    Same shit happened to me AlphaOmega. Luckily I was able to find the fight online.

    My buddy asked last night who’s next for Bendo? I said, Gilbert or Alvarez but the truth is neither of them really deserve it, so who is next? I guess there’s the Pettis story line if he gets passed Cerone, but it’s strange to look at the LW landscape and NOT see at least a couple of potential contenders.

    As for WW, I’d like to see GSP move up and vacate the belt. I know folks want to see Hendrick (and he deserves the shot) but he hasn’t shown anything that GSP hasn’t beaten before. And Diaz is so far out of a title shot IMO, it shouldn’t even be an issue.
    Rory vs Condit or Hendricks for the vacated WW belt, and Diaz vs Kos.

    Did anyone else catch the fact that Gustafsson/Showgun was a #1 contender match? Dana must be really pissed at Hendo.

  • AlphaOmega says:

    I would of tried that, but we didn’t get done with our building (still not done) until after 12, then we had to load up the stuff we put together ton eBay, so the fights were long over by the time we got around to watching the main event by 2am.

    I mentioned to my friend that I wondered if they’d make the Cowboy/Henderson 3 fight if Cowboy beat Showtime, but they could have Henderson get revenge against Showtime if he won. With Gil there’s the whole Ceasar Gracie revenge tactic, I just have a feeling Gil won’t get signed by UFC with all the recent comments and backing out of fights hes made, seems fishy to me. But I’ve been wrong a lot of times before.

    I bet Shogun is wishing now that he agreed to take the fight with Jones, because I don’t see him being able to get back up into title contention. I think he gets worn out to much anymore.

  • Screenplaya says:

    If BJ Penn and Shogun intend to ever regain their old glory, then they both need to sit down and watch Dennis Siver. Siver learned that to compete at the highest level, he needed to cut down to a lower weight. And look at the monster gorilla he is now!

    Both BJ and Shogun looked like chubby kids fighting giants who workout. Both of them will have to move down at least one weight class to be competitive at the top of the sport.

  • elsicilian says:

    @Niv – as I said originally, “innocent until proven guilty” is the evidentiary standard of the criminal courts, not the court of public opinion, and certainly not the court of common sense. The fact that you responded with “this type of testimony in a court of law would be laughed out of court” (and that you seem to believe that’s a good retort) suggests that you’re just not paying attention.

    Meanwhile, as I also explained in rather painstaking detail, lots of fighters themselves (and others within the fight industry) assert that a MAJORITY of UFC fighters are using PEDs, and the long list of positive tests (Josh Barnett, Tim Sylvia, Nate Marquardt, Vitor Belfort, Bonnar, Royce Gracie, Phil Baroni, Sean Sherk, Hermes Franca, Dennis Hallman, Bigfoot Silva, Ken Shamrock, Chael Sonnen, James Irvin, Thiago Silva, King Mo Lawal, Alistair Overeem, et. al.) seems to support that theory. If that’s true, the laws of probability would suggest that any UFC fighter (pull a name out of a hat) is likelier to be doing PEDs than not, simply on account of the fact that he’s a UFC fighter. Newsflash: that’s not “hatred” or “jealousy” … that’s simple arithmetic.

    Finally, your assertion that “if the guy is being randomly tested and passes then he’s clean” is kind of charming in its naivete, but again, laughably off-base. Lance Armstrong never failed a drug test. Roger Clemens never failed a drug test. Passing a drug test doesn’t mean you are clean, it just means you managed to pass the test.

    Basically, it’s impossible to PROVE that you are not using steroids, and if you are a UFC fighter you are by definition LIKELY to be using steroids. Add to that sudden weight gain and bacne, and most people are going to (very reasonably) assume that you are a juicer. If you don’t like it, find a different line of work.

  • Niv says:

    @Sicilian thanks for your response. One thing that puzzles me about your passionate response and allegations is because there are cheaters out there the odds are that he (must be or could be a cheater).

    Ok, in short by being a UFC fighter you are most likely a cheater, then why even take the time to single Rory out?

    Sounds like a moot point doesn’t it? Who cares if he is tested and passes we’ll just arbitrarily say he must be cheating and point to how others tested passed when in fact they cheated.

    Common sense of course must take into account that many fighters that admit to cheating must be inherently honest when they say almost everyone uses PED’s right? Common sense wouldn’t suggest cheaters give those reasons to justify there needing to cheat because they’re not good enough. Maybe self interests of those looking for an edge come into play and we have a distorted view of how many actually cheat?

    In short the cream usually rises to the top regardless, I sure hope those who hold your views truly appreciate how great Fedor was because I couldn’t picture him ever being a roid freak.

  • elsicilian says:

    @Niv – I don’t really understand your point about cheaters giving a distorted view of how many cheat. I get that you might question the credibility of a single repentant cheater who was looking to rehabilitate his image, but this isn’t one or two whistle-blowers. I just provided a list of about twenty fighters who had been busted using steroids, and easily could name twenty more. Countless other fighters, executives, analysts, and others in the industry (not just the fighters who have been busted themselves) acknowledge rampant PED use. Virtually everything we see and hear points to a PED epidemic among MMA fighters in general, and the UFC in particular. Most other leagues and sports (especially endurance-related activities, and/or sports with a lot of injuries/recovery) have dealt with widespread PED abuse. It’s a problem that has subsumed sports in the 21st century, and the sport of MMA is particularly well-suited to steroid use and abuse.

    The fact that there is such a blatant and obvious PED culture leaves the fighters vulnerable to speculation and innuendo. Guys like Rory get “singled out” because they put on a lot of weight all of a sudden, or show up with a back full of bacne. In a vacuum those things might not necessarily be reliable indicators of steroid use, but in the context of a UFC fighter, they OBVIOUSLY are strong indicators, and they elevate that particular fighter from “more likely than not” to “pretty friggin likely” to be a juicer. If you prefer to believe that “all fighters are innocent until proven guilty,” that’s your business; but that’s not a very realistic assessment of the situation on the ground … that’s just sticking your head in the sand.

    Now if you recall, I did NOT “take the time to single Rory out,” I took the time to defend darth_irritable from weak accusations and ad hominem attacks when he had the temerity to observe that Rory was showing clear signs of steroid use. The one thing that really puzzles me is guys like you who rush to the DEFENSE of any particular guy accused of using PEDs, like your mother is being insulted or something. You don’t know that guy, you have no idea what’s in his heart of hearts, you can never definitively prove he’s NOT juicing, and in fact (as we’ve just discussed), if circumstantial evidence of PEDs appear, the odds strongly suggest he probably IS juicing. At the risk of repeating myself, I’ll say again: it’s not “hatred” or “jealousy” it’s simple arithmetic.

    Personally, I don’t care too much about PEDs. I enjoy the fights either way, and I honestly don’t care who is juicing and who is not. They still have to get in the ring and fight, and the distinction between legal and illegal supplements is pretty arbitrary when you get right down to it. I’d prefer that everyone play on as level a playing field as possible (and I think reasonable measures to dissuade blatant juicing are probably a good idea), but I’m pragmatic enough to understand that’s just a speed-bump in the stampede of steroid use that’s likely to be a part of MMA for the foreseeable future.

  • Richard Stabone says:

    What’s the deal with this talk about Rory putting on a lot of weight all of a sudden? What is that based on?

    Rory is part of the new wave of MMA, having gotten involved in the fight game from an early age. He had his first pro fight at age 16, and debuted at 170 before reaching 20 years old. He’s just now getting into his early 20s, reaching full physical maturation, and has access to a world class gym while having the resources (i.e. money) to fully dedicate himself to full time training & fighting. Given these circumstances, I fail to see why anyone would find it suspicious that Rory has reached the 190-200 lb. range with his 6 foot frame.
    I do believe the majority of pro fighters use PEDs (not that MMA is unique from other pro sports in that regard). We talk about PEDs in a broad & generic sense, when in reality there are all sorts of performance enhancers… some considered more clean/dirty than others, with essentially no accurate way of making that distinction anyway, as studies are limited and always several steps behind the next thing being designed & used by top athletes anyway. Plus, there’s PED use and there’s PED abuse. Meaning, it’s one thing to use PEDs but it’s up to each individual to decide how far they’re willing to push the envelope with their own healthy & body. But as fans, with our court of public opinion, we like to broadly generalize and connect the dots however we see fit. If a guy uses PEDs he’s a “juicer” or “cheater” or whatever other ignorant label we want to slap on it and we lump those guys all together. Wonderful.

    So anyway, I thought it was silly when darth started singling out Rory Saturday night and feel the same way now. But as far as the bigger PED issue, I’d say my stance is similar to yours. My expectation is that these guys act like professionals… understand what they’re putting into their body, understand *how* the stuff they’re using should be adminstered so it doesn’t go down the slippery slope towards abuse. And don’t be stupid enough to fail a test and risk spoiling fights for us fans!!

  • Niv says:

    @elsicilian, ok I am not naive that there are always cheaters out there in pro sports especially where money is involved. Having said that with your analysis that according to exec’s, fighters and managers steroid use is rampant. It just may be the case but my point is that their sources are almost always someone who feels they can’t compete without cheating, and thus the justification for such use almost always comes from an unreliable source. If we use unreliable sources to form our calculations then our arithmetic might be off more than we think, just giving you another possibility.

    Now Richard above stole my thunder, what he said about Rory starting at age16 and debuting in the UFC at 20. Since then working out in a world class gym with maybe the best fighter on the planet has a lot to do with his physical maturation. I haven’t seen any growth spurt that warrants the accusations that he’s a cheater. Take into account Dan Hardy’s recent statements about how blown away he was at how hard Macdonald trains when he witnessed it first hand training with GSP. Maybe just maybe he’s one of those people who get where they want to with hard work and dignity?

    You seem to have issues with anyone who expects that we treat peoples reputations both personal and professional with respect. Stating you’re using simple arithmetic is common sense when in fact it isn’t at all. People’s reputations deserve better than a cookie cutter approach that if one cheats therefore we lump them all together approach. It’s in my opinion an ignorant way to justify dragging someone’s name through the mud.

    I’ll reserve my judgement for those who get caught, simple as that.

    Thanks for the debate, I have nothing else to add on this subject.

  • elsicilian says:

    It sounds like you guys are both jumping through a lot of hoops and bending over backwards to avoid the obvious conclusion: a guy who shows telltale signs of steroid use – in a sport where steroid use is clearly prevalent – is most likely using steroids. Not that complicated.

    Obviously that’s not enough to convict someone of a crime or anything, but it’s more than sufficient basis for a reasonable opinion. As emphasized previously, if you personally prefer to reserve judgment out of some sense of fairness or respect, that’s totally your prerogative. But don’t confuse a reasonable opinion with “hating,” “jealousy,” or “pettiness” … that just makes your otherwise principled (and totally respectable) position look like cluelessness/naivete.

    Like Richard, I wish people would just forget about PEDs altogether, or at least not make such a big deal out of it (I fully endorse his very well-stated position). But since PEDs are one of the biggest issues in sports today, the drama surrounding them is here to stay in the UFC. If guys can’t take the heat, they should probably find a different line of work. These guys are entertainers and (more significantly) public figures as well as competitors and athletes … this sort of stuff literally comes with the territory.

    Thanks to both you guys for a thoughtful and well-reasoned debate. That’s a refreshing change of pace for the internet, but it seems to happen on this site with some regularity.


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