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The After Party – “Strikeforce: Overeem vs. Werdum”

Dallas fans wanted Dirk Nowitzki this past Saturday night. Instead they got LeBron James. After a good start to the event, the show collapsed in the final fight of the night with a lackluster performance by the main event participants. Unlike LeBron though, the main event winner is a champion. All was not lost though because instead of staring at a supporting cast that included Mike Miller, Dallas fans got to focus their eyes on Kelli Hutcherson for the majority of the night.

Alistair Overeem defeated Fabricio Werdum by Unanimous Decision (29-28, 30-27, 30-27)

Alistair Overeem and Fabricio Werdum engaged in one of the strangest striker vs, grappler fights in MMA history and in the end, Overeem walked away with the decision.

Fight Recap: Where do I begin with this fight? Werdum did a very good job on the feet, pressing forward with his strikes and tagging Overeem with straight punches while Overeem just retreated and kept looking for one big power punch. Then every time Overeem grazed Werdum with a punch or a knee, Werdum would go down in hopes that Overeem would follow him to the ground. And then when Overeem didn’t follow him down, Werdum would politely beg. Overeem stuffed every takedown Werdum went for but instead of giving up, Werdum would pull guard. The few times that Overeem ended up in the guard of Werdum, the jiu-jitsu black belt couldn’t do anything with him. Overeem didn’t do any damage on top but because he was on top and Werdum wasn’t constantly threatening with submissions or sweeps, the conclusion was that Overeem was winning. When they would stand back up, Werdum would once again tag Overeem but then go for a takedown, pull guard, or fall down when he was breathed on. In the second round, Werdum looked very tired but based on how he looked in the third round, I’m inclined to believe that he was once again trying to bait Overeem to follow him to the ground. Whatever Werdum’s strategy was, it didn’t work as he lost the decision and allowed Overeem to advance to the Semifinals of the Strikeforce Heavyweight Grand Prix.

Werdum Fight Assessment: Werdum’s performance was puzzling to say the least. He was doing very well on the feet but he was so afraid of Overeem’s power that despite his success in the stand up, he constantly kept trying to get the fight to the ground. Then when he got the fight to the ground, he did nothing. While Werdum may not have hurt Overeem on the feet, I’m not sure Werdum was ever hurt either. It’s tough to tell if a guy is hurt when he goes to his back every time he gets hit. It’s obvious that Werdum’s strategy was to go to his back in hopes that Overeem would recklessly follow him down but Overeem was smart enough not to fall into the same trap that Fedor Emelianenko did. Maybe Werdum was hurt when Overeem threw him to the ground, which would explain Werdum’s lack of doing anything on the ground.

Werdum Future: Werdum has the tools to be a very good heavyweight because his striking is much improved and his ground game is still very good but he needs to start trusting his striking. Lets not forget that Werdum stopped Gabriel Gonzaga with strikes (and this was before Gonzaga really fell off) and held his own against ‘Big Foot’ Silva so he doesn’t have to get the fight to the ground to win, he just needs to realize that.

Overeem Fight Assessment: It was tough for Overeem to look good in this fight because of how Werdum was fighting but any talk of Overeem being a top heavyweight ceased after this performance. He got out-struck by Werdum and didn’t really do anything. As mentioned, I’m not even sure Overeem ever hurt Werdum because Werdum bumped every time Overeem smiled. To Overeem’s credit, his takedown defense looked good and he made it almost impossible for Werdum to do anything with him on the ground by using his weight to stay tight to him.

Overeem Future: Overeem is still the same ol’ Overeem. He doesn’t have great cardio and he doesn’t react well to getting hit. His striking is very technical, he has power, and “K-1 Champion” sounds nice but when a guy is so worried about the grappling, it doesn’t mean much in MMA. His size looks imposing, and it’s great in the first two minutes, but after it works against him and he begins to fade. He’ll face Antonio Silva next and if he’s afraid of Silva’s takedowns and doesn’t allow himself to open up on the feet, he’s not going to fair well against a hard hitter like Silva. And of course if he does open up on his feet, he could find himself on his back against a big guy like Silva.

Predicted Next Fights: Werdum vs. Andrei Arlovski – Overeem vs. Silva

Josh Barnett defeated Brett Rogers by Submission (Arm Triangle) at 1:17 in Round Two

Josh Barnett made a successful return to the US, throwing around and eventually submitting the heavy handed Brett Rogers.

Fight Recap: This fight went about as expected. Barnett took down Rogers early in the first round and had his way with him, in terms of control, on the ground the entire first round. While he didn’t do too much damage despite having a dominant position for over four minutes in the round, he wore out Rogers with his size. In the second round, Barnett hit Rogers with a left hook that had Rogers clinching. For there Barnett easily threw him to the ground, once again mounted him, and locked on an arm triangle. Before Barnett could move to side control to sink in the choke even more, Rogers was already tapping out. It was a dominant performance by Barnett and moved him one step closer to winning the Strikeforce Heavyweight Grand Prix.

Rogers Fight Assessment: Well, Rogers showed up, so at least there’s that. I’m not sure he landed a single strike in the fight and he was absolutely lost on the ground. There’s just not much to say about his performance other than it wasn’t very good and that’s being generous.

Rogers Future: Rogers is who he is. He’s a guy who hits hard and that’s about it. He’s not even a great striker, he just hits hard. His takedown defense isn’t great and he has very little ground game. He can have good fights against other heavy hitters but he’s going to lose nine times out of ten against a top heavyweight.

Barnett Fight Assessment: Barnett did what he needed to do. He didn’t mess around with Rogers on the feet, he put him down quickly, and then he schooled him on the ground. Best of all, he took no damage and put Rogers away relatively quickly. It was the performance Barnett needed to have against a clearly overmatched fighter so give him credit for that.

Barnett Future: Barnett is still a mystery. Rogers was supposed to be his first test in a while but pretty much everyone knew that Rogers wouldn’t be much of a test, especially if the fight hit the ground. Barnett’s ground game is outstanding and he showed that in this fight, never relinquishing top position once he got it. Now he’ll face Sergei Kharitonov, who will be an actual test for him as Kharitonov brings a lot more to the table than Rogers.

Predicted Next Fights: Rogers vs. Valentijn Overeem – Barnett vs. Kharitonov

Jorge Masvidal defeated KJ Noons by Unanimous Decision (30-27, 30-27, 30-27)

Jorge Masvidal solidified his spot as the top contender to the Strikeforce lightweight title with a dominant victory over KJ Noons.

Fight Recap: Both men started quickly in this fight. Masvidal established his jab while Noons was looking to attack the body. In trying to go downstairs on Masvidal though, Noons had to duck his head, which allowed Masvidal to land some jumping knees, one of which cut Noons on the forehead. At the end of the first round, Masvidal dropped Noons with a head kick and tried to finish him but Noons managed to survive to the bell. In the second round, Noons was once again trying to work the Masvidal but Masvidal did a nice job keeping Noons at bay with quick leg kicks that tripped up Noons. Masvidal also scored with a number of takedowns and was able to rough up Noons a bit with short elbows. At the end of the round, Masvidal landed another big knee to the head of Noons. By the end of the second, Noons’ face was a mess and he started to grow an extra forehead. Knowing he was down two rounds, Noons came out strong in the final frame but Masvidal constantly moved away and didn’t allow Noons to land anything too clean. Masvidal secured another takedown and stuck Noons against the cage the rest of the round to pick up a clean sweep on the card. It was a dominant performance by Masvidal and one that sent a message to champ Gilbert Melendez.

Noons Fight Assessment: Noons fought his heart out but he just wasn’t as good as Masvidal on this night. He did some good things on the feet, like going to the body, and he caught Masvidal with some good punches but they didn’t have quite enough starch behind them. I was really impressed with Noons’ takedown and grappling defense. He stuffed the initial shot of Masvidal a couple of times and when he was taken down, he was almost immediately back up. He just wasn’t quite as sharp as Masvidal on the feet and was controlled too much in close, which led to him dropping the decision.

Noons Future: Noons might have pro boxing experience but his style doesn’t really translate to MMA because he ducks his head too much, and with knees and kicks, it leaves him vulnerable. Noons is going to be in a lot of fights because he’s a tough guy with very good striking and an improving ground game but he may need to revamp his striking style if he wants to be a contender again.

Masvidal Fight Assessment: I thought Masvidal looked outstanding in this fight. He got a bit tired in the third round but for the first two rounds, he laid a beating on Noons with his striking. He did a great job throwing knees and timing them to when Noons would duck his head. Masvidal’s technical boxing continues to impress as well. He has a very good jab and does a good job of moving his head and feet in order to avoid strikes. Plus he mixed in some takedowns during the fight, which made him a lot less predictable than Noons was.

Masvidal Future: Masvidal is really the only contender for the Strikeforce lightweight title and I’d be shocked if he doesn’t challenge Melendez in his next bout. He’s going to be a tough test for Melendez but he’s going to need to improve his conditioning if he really wants to make it a fight against Melendez. He can’t get tired like he did against Noons because Melendez has an endless gas tank and pushes a very strong pace.

Predicted Next Fights: Noons vs. JZ Cavalcante – Masvidal vs. Melendez

Daniel Cormier defeated Jeff Monson by Unanimous Decision (30-27, 30-27, 30-27)

Daniel Cormier picked up the biggest win of his career, coasting to an easy decision over veteran Jeff Monson.

Fight Recap: The story of this fight was Cormier’s speed. The entire bout took place on the feet and Cormier lit up Monson with his hands. Monson tried to establish the jab early but every time he threw his jab, Cormier slipped and fire back with two or three punches of his own. Not only was Cormier countering well but he was diversifying his strikes by going to the body and then to the head and also mixing in some kicks to the legs and body. Cormier rocked Monson a number of times during the fight but Monson, being the tough costumer that he is, wouldn’t go down or be finished. Monson tagged Cormier a couple of times, usually with a left hook, but Cormier seemed unfazed. When Monson would go for a takedown, Cormier would easily shrug him away and resumed dominating things on the feet. Even though Cormier couldn’t put Monson away, he turned in a very impressive performance and easily won on the judges scorecards.

Monson Fight Assessment: Monson was just too slow to keep up with Cormier. He couldn’t get the fight to the ground, which means he was forced to stand with Cormier, and he couldn’t catch Cormier with his hands despite years more striking training. I would have liked to see Monson throw more leg kicks, just because they could have been used to bait Cormier into a takedown and they may have slowed Cormier down but he was pretty content with sticking to a jab and a left hook.

Monson Future: Monson said before the fight that he plans on dropping to 205. At 40 years old, it’s not only going to be a tough cut for him but I’m not sure how much it’s actually going to help him. He had trouble dealing with Cormier’s speed and at 205, he’s going to be up against even faster fighters who are just as good as Cormier.

Cormier Fight Assessment: Cormier did everything but finish Monson in this fight. His striking continues to improve and it was on full display in this fight. It really reminded me of Cain Velasquez’ performance against Antontio Rodrigo Nogueira. When Nogueria would throw a jab, Velasquez would come back with a three-punch combination. That’s exactly what Cormier did, just without the highlight KO. He played to his strengths and stuck to his game plan, which is also a credit to Cormier.

Cormier Future: As he continues to get experience, both in training and fighting, Cormier is going to be a legit threat in the heavyweight division. His wrestling credentials speak for themselves and he seems to improve at a very quick pace. He’s a real dark horse in the Strikeforce Heavyweight Grand Prix as well because if someone gets injured, Cormier will probably be the first man called to action.

Predicted Next Fights: Monson vs. Abongo Humphrey – Cormier vs. Chad Griggs

Chad Griggs defeated Valentijn Overeem by TKO (Strikes) at 2:08 in Round One

No one expected this fight to go long and it didn’t as Chad Griggs made short work of Valentijn Overeem.

Fight Recap: There wasn’t much to this fight. Griggs almost immediately clinched and then hit a beautiful lateral drop to put Overeem on his back. On the ground, Overeem tried for an Americana off his back but Griggs ended up punching his way out of it. One he was free, Griggs continues to hammer away on Overeem, who eventually turtled up and tapped out due to strikes. It was another strong victory for Griggs and one that keeps him in the heavyweight mix.

Overeem Fight Assessment: This was your typical Overeem performance. He tried to finish things early with a submission, got hit more than he liked, and wanted a way out of the fight. Like Brett Rogers, at least he showed up.

Overeem Future: There is a reason why Overeem rarely makes it out of the first round. He either puts guys away quickly or gets put away quickly. He doesn’t like getting hit, he doesn’t have much cardio, and neither of those things are going to change.

Griggs Fight Assessment: Griggs knew his best chance to win this fight was on top and that’s where he took the fight. The lateral drop he hit was a new wrinkle in his game and he continued to prove that he is a tough costumer by punching his way out of a bad position. From there he just overwhelmed Overeem and made him quit.

Griggs Future: I still don’t know how good Griggs is or how good he can be but the guy keeps winning, so that counts for something. If nothing else, he hits hard and has a ton of heart, which can take guys to a decent level in the sport. He’ll likely find out what Griggs is really made of in his next bout, which should be against Daniel Cormier.

Predicted Next Fights: Overeem vs. Brett Rogers – Griggs vs. Cormier

Quick Preliminary Thoughts

*Shame that Justin Wilcox vs. Gesias Cavalcante ended in a no decision. I hope Wilcox is alright but I have a feeling that he’ll be out of action for awhile.

*How tough is Connor Heun? Maybe it wasn’t the smartest decision in the world not to tap out from Magno Almeida’s armbar but if you’re gonna be dumb, you gotta be tough.

*Hopefully we actually see Nah-Shon Burrell and Isaac Vallie-Flagg again. Strikeforce has a habit of just letting their prelim fighters, win or lose, fade away though.


  • Rece Rock says:

    I missed this card… I was upset I forgot to DVR it but after reading the results it seems as of I didn’t miss much. The Noons / Masvidal fight sounds like it was good. But the HW’s sound a bit lack luster.

  • boomnutz says:

    Rece you didn’t miss much at all. I can’t even remember Monson going in for a takedown, Cormier’s striking to me didn’t even look that good, it was just better than Monson’s. It was hard to tell whether Barnett looked good, or Roger’s looked bad. And Werdum and Overeem both looked awful, if I took the time to do a stock report I’d have probably put Overeem and Werdum in the stock down department. Both fighters looked tired towards the end and there was hardly any action. It’s hard for me to believe that the winner of this tournament would be # 2 in the world. I can honestly say I think none of these fighters could beat Carwin, Lesnar, Cain or JDS

    Just plain awful, i’m glad I waited to watch it on DVD. BTW the announcers started protesting the Grigg’s stoppage, they’re so fucking stupid/unprofessional it’s not even funny. Valenjtin was clearly tapping.

  • boomnutz says:

    Rece you didn’t miss much at all. I can’t even remember Monson going in for a takedown, Cormier’s striking to me didn’t even look that good, it was just better than Monson’s. It was hard to tell whether Barnett looked good, or Roger’s looked bad. And Werdum and Overeem both looked awful, if I took the time to do a stock report I’d have probably put Overeem and Werdum in the stock down department. Both fighters looked tired towards the end and there was hardly any action. It’s hard for me to believe that the winner of this tournament would be # 2 in the world. I can honestly say I think none of these fighters could beat Carwin, Lesnar, Cain or JDS

    Just plain awful, i’m glad I waited to watch it on DVR. BTW the announcers started protesting the Grigg’s stoppage, they’re so fucking stupid/unprofessional it’s not even funny. Valenjtin was clearly tapping.

  • hindsightufuk says:

    i was impressed with Josh Barnett, guess he’s got a long way to go before people start giving him any love again.
    with regards to jeff monson, i love the guy, but his performance was typical of the type of fighter he is, a travelling fighter if you will, a fighter without a home. the guy has already fought three times this year in three different countries, its hardly decent preperation for a high(ish) pofile fight. if he had a promotion to fight and was guarenteed the money and three fights a year and time for a full training camp as all top fighters seem to need these days, i’m sure you would have seen a different result.
    he fought 9 times last year in six different countries, an amazing experience for sure, but when the big time oppurtunity comes calling for you to step back into a high profile fight and make some money, thats when it takes its toll. i was gutted, he looked old and out of shape, times seems to have caught up with him

  • Angry Mike says:


    You must watch a replay. Mauro Renallo got rid of his hairpiece and is sporting a shaved head. He’s also wearing black framed glasses. He looks eerily like Wally in the Dilbert comic strip.

    And by the way, I thought the fights were entertaining. I was pretty impressed with Masivdal, who dismantled Noons. I was very interested in the Werdum/Overeem fight. Werdum did better than I thought he would when striking, and Overeem did not come off like an unbeatable contender. I was also very interested in watching Barnett, who hasn’t fought for what, 1.5 or 2 years now? He looked really good against Grimm. I know Grimm is one-dimensional, but Barnett handled him with such ease that I was impressed. Barnett v. Silva could be a great fight.

    So was it a great night? Probably not, but for Strikeforce it was pretty good. I’m glad I saw it.

  • fanoftna33 says:

    Masvidal looked very good, but Noons showed that even after getting hit with knees-uppercuts- and kicke that he couldnt or wouldnt stop ducking his head at every feint Jorge threw and really paid the price for it.
    Griggs is nothing but impressive.
    Cormier is coming along nicely.
    Josh Barnett looked very good in his first high profile fight in years, the takedown into mount in round 2 was awesome.

  • THEGUNNER says:

    They need to set the next round of fights up quickly people are gonna get tired of waiting for this tourny to end. Plus if the fights are as bad as sat night who cares who wins the gran prix.

  • MMA-LOGIC says:

    Well Anderson Silva looked just as bad against Leites and Maia when they fell to their backs everytime he attacked.
    It is always the same dudes that leap on any oportunity to take a dig at Non-UFC fighters.
    Carwin has 1 win over a legit top fighter and his career wins are over guys that have an ave win loss ratio of 11-8. Impressed? Dos Santos has faced 5 opponents after Werdum and the highly impressive Carwin is the first guy in the top 10 (just like Rogers was top 10) and they have a combined ave win loss record of 2-3 in their lat 5. Impressed? Valesquez has a fairly impressive record with wins over Nog and Lesnar at the top but his win over Lesnar was a farce as Lesnar curled up in the fetal position after Cain started to hit him. I can honestly say that although the top few HW fighters have shown promise, they have not been overly impressive. Carwin is a Rogers, Dos Santos has faced nobody I would consider a real threat since Werdum, Valesquez has been injured and he is yet to prove he can come back from advetsity. You guys all come to the conclusion that the top UFC fighters are better but why? Ever seen Dos Santos fight on the ground?

  • MMA-LOGIC says:

    Here is my honest opinion on who the top HWs in the world are. Not by wins and losses but by their ability.
    1 Cain Valesquez
    2 Alistair Overeem
    3 Josh barnett
    4 Big Foot
    5 Fedor Emelienenko
    6 Mir
    7Jr Dos Santos
    8Fabricio Werdum
    9 Cormier
    10 Kharitonov.

  • MMA-LOGIC says:

    Lesnar would slot in their somewhere but Im not sure he will ever fight again.

  • TerribleT says:

    I’m embarrassed to admit that I thought Allistair Overeem was a real monster . I really thought he would,borrowing Brock Lesnar’s line, WOW everybody………….but the ppl who said he was all hype bcuz he hadn’t fought anybody(in MMA)since becoming a heavyweight were all right. He looked pathetic. He got tagged over & over & over by Werdum and if Werdum had kept the fight standing I honestly think he would have won but he spent entirely too much time laying & praying & rolling around on the canvas which ended up being his downfall bcuz Overeem was able to spend quite a bit of time on top of him after he got tired although Overeem didn’t ever do anything from top position. The final compu stat strike numbers weighed heavily in Werdum’s favor,adding to the headscratching LOL :-) but I didn’t think Werdum won but if I would have seen the stats & not the fight I no doubt would have. What a SNOOZEFEST !!!!!! :-(

  • MMA-LOGIC says:

    Look I usally give most people on here credit but you are all acting like it was Overeems fault. This is where I say THINK ABOUT IT. Overeem is the K1champ and in that he tends to cover up and throw power shots etc, picking his time to strike. He is very good at it. In this fight everytime he attacked Werdum dropped to the ground which prevented any attack from Overeem. Werdum is probably the best fighter in HW MMA off his back and had just beaten Fedor by baiting him into his guard. People on this site are saying that he is not a good striker based on this performance as if his last few years fighting the worlds best K1fighters, his win at the K1grand prix, his win over Duffee, Rogers and many other strikers in K1 that are far better than any UFC striker, mean nothing. Honestly I give you way too much credit. Werdum has TKOed Gonzaga twice and more convincingly than Carwin who was nearly KOed himself. If you guys new anything about MMA you would be saying “It was a boring fight, Werdum failed every single take down, Overeem could not mount any kind of attack because Werdum fell to his back everytime Alistair came forward. So because of the tactics from both fighters it amounted to a frustratingly shitty fight”. This fight is not anymore of an indication of Werdum or Overeems ability than the fight between Maia and A.Silva was of theirs. I am not talking shit, many people who know more about MMA than me or you think Overeem is the best and if you really doubt his striking you 100% do not have a clue. He IS one of the best strkers in K1and probably THE best in HW MMA. Sonnen got the better of A.Silva in striking in their fight, Couture bettered Liddell in strikes in their first fight, Shields almost outstruck GSP, Serra KOed GSP. So use your brains and stop jumping on anything you can to put a fighter you already have a bias against down.You all give me negative ticks but yet all of which I’ve stated is true. So just wait until the UFC vs SF fights happen before you judge. That is what I intend to do, because I’m not the type to base judgement on a messy win over a top 5 fighter who has beaten the likes of Fedor, Belfort, Aleks, Gonzaga, Big Foot, Erikson, Overeem and Kharitonov. That would be foolish wouldn’t it? He just beat a guy that has a better resume than 90% of the UFCs HWs, was top 5 (for a legit reason) and a guy many of you picked to beat Overeem. As has happened to Silva twice. You cannot look great against a guy who drops to his back everytime you attack. It was a frustating fight but no indication of skill or ability.

  • MMA-LOGIC says:

    Oh an as always I would prefer if you pointed out whete Im wrong instead of just giving me the thumbs down for stating facts. I am sorry if facts point out where you lack of logic or bias may be flawed but I guess thats my point, Im hoping you will try and do the same. There is a lot to be said for reason and logic.

  • TerribleT says:

    @MMA-LOGIC, OK you convinced me I was wrong. Overeem looked fantastic against Werdum. He was flawless and easily lived up to all the hype that preceded him and his fight. He should without question be considered one of the best MMA heavyweights in the world if not thee best based on his performance last Saturday night. I’m positive that Dana White and the Fertittas were WOWED !

  • For the most part I agree with what you’re sayin Logic except this one big point. How is Werdum gettin his ass WHOOPED until Gonzaga gasses and then gettin a comefrombehind TKO more convincing Than Carwin takin two hard shots bein taken down by an outstanding top game bjj player getting up and knocking him out from less than arms length?
    I do want to see the SF vs UFC fights…I think Gil could give Frankie a fight, Im takin Diaz over GSP, I think Jacare would go after Silva head on…Hendo vs. Jones eh…not so much, Cain vs The Reem would be great

  • Kuch says:

    MMA-LOGIC – O.K., I’ll tell you where you’re wrong and why.

    First off, Heavyweight is easily the weakest and shallowest division in MMA. The majority of Heavyweights are terribly one-dimensional and win fights through sheer strength and size. There are exceptions of course, but that description easily fits 9 of 10 heavyweights, past and present. Things are starting to progress as the division (and MMA) grows, but it is a slow and aggravating process.

    While you’ve done a fine job of dissecting and minimizing the performances of all the UFC heavyweights, the same is easily done with EVERY Heavyweight fighter due to the general weakness of the division (see my first paragraph). I can easily minimize and belittle every Heavyweight fighter without even looking very deep into their win/loss records, but that’s really just the nature of the division.

    In regards to your rankings, I understand you are trying to rank them according to how you gauge their abilities, but the truth is that ability doesn’t mean anything when compared to wins and losses. A fighter might be the most skilled fighter on the planet, but if he can’t win in a big fight, then he’s not really worth mentioning. Ability is great in the gym, but it’s meaningless if the fighter always loses. Failing to count wins and losses (even flukes) is failing to count what means the most; how fighters perform in the ring/cage.

    In regards to the Werdum/Overeem fight, I do agree that one frustratingly boring fight doesn’t necessarily demonstrate a fighter’s abilities. Unfortunately though for Overeem, this was his biggest US bout and was his chance to convincingly introduce himself to the American fans. I think he failed to impress, although I do not place the blame solely on his shoulders. I think Werdum had a poor gameplan coming into the bout (begging for your opponent to lay in your guard?) and Overeem didn’t get the chance to showcase his skills. The result was a slow match that saw both guys looking tired after 15 minutes lf lackluster action. Naturally, this isn’t going to impress casual fans.

    In regards to Overeem’s K1 success, I think it cannot be stressed enough that kickboxing and MMA are completely different sports, where success in one doesn’t equate to success in another. Can I appreciate Overeem’s accomplishments in K1? Absolutely. Does it mean anything in regards to his MMA career? Only if we also start acknowledging other fighter’s accomplishments in wrestling, boxing, grappling tournaments and whatever else they happen to do before or during their MMA careers. Does Overeems K1 success mean he is a great striker? I think it does, but a win over Todd Duffee doesn’t do anything for him when it comes to ranking him against fighters who are actively competing against tougher competition.

    The main event was disappointing and didn’t do much for either man’s career – that’s it. There weren’t any holes exposed, but some of the hype is gone from both guys.

  • MCM says:

    First off, I didn’t give you any negative ticks. But you throw out words like “truth” and “fact”, when what you’re actually stating are Opinions.
    You say things like “Carwin has 1 win over a legit top fighter..”, well the same can be said of Overeem, and some people still think Werdum won. The use of the word “legit” is where things get murky. Was Mir a legit fighter? By whose standards? What about Rogers or Gonzaga? Were they “legit”?
    You can make the argument that so and so had them ranked at such and such a spot and by that definition they were good/bad. But rankings are so subjective and argumentative that not one board, organization, or group of people have ever been able to agree as to their order.
    You gave your top 10 based on your “honest opinion” and that’s all any of them are based off of. Because there are no hard “facts” or real “truth” to draw upon, there is only MMA math and our Perceptions of fighter skills.

  • Rankings are totally subjective and cannot be fact for one simple reason. The best havent fought the best in awhile. We’re starting to really see that happening and I think within a few years we might have a definitive rankings standard to go by…some divisions there are no questions as to who is the best in the world(Silva at 185 GSP at 170) and truthfully those are the only two I can say with all honesty are factual. Frankie is awesome but Gray had him wobbled, we havent seen Gil against some real upper eschelon fighters in awhile and I think he’ll do great in the UFC. Hendo’s bad ass but lets not forget that 4 years ago he was felled by the current number 1 contender in the UFC. HW is and will be a mystery until we sort it out by seeing the best fight the best…and I feel it comin soon.

  • MMA-LOGIC says:

    See I do give too much credit. I never daid my opinon of the top 10 was fact. I said it was opinion, I mean ot is written right there, duhhhh. I also said Carwin not being legit was opinion, it AGAIN is written right there duhhhhhhh. I also said terrible t that Overeem vs Werdum was bad but you cant base a assumtion of skill on a victory over a top 5 no matter how bad the fight was you however tried (like a 2 year old would)to say he looked good or that was eben remotely what I was saying. What is fact MCM is Carwins lack of victories over anybody who matters in a major organisation. He has 1 over Mir and even with that inclusion his opponents that he has victories over have a win loss ratio of around 4 wins to every 3 losses. Dos Santos just beat Gonzaga who has been dropped and is 5-5 from his last 10, Nelson, a guy who has never beaten a top 25 fighter and is 2-4 from his last 6 and has lost via strikes in 1way or another to Monson, Arlovski, Mir, Rothwell and now Dos Santos, he beat Struve an up and commer who has not beaten a top 25 either, then there was Yvel, a guy who is 1-4 from his last 5 and who lost to every Pride HW he faced but Goodridge. These are facts.
    Overeem is a top 10.
    Overeem is the K1 champ and a highly decorated and touted striker as a result.
    Wedum is a top 10 and 1 of the best bjj fighters and just baited Fedor into a loss by falling to his back as Fedor tried to attack on the feet.
    These are facts. Next time I state that it is an opinion pay attention MCM. I did state it was opinion and if you dont think that Mir is a legit opponent is a fact then a guy who just beat 2 of Dos Santos’s biggest opponents/victories (and in my opinion, more desicively) and former UFC champion, former world no 1 or 2 and former UFC HW title challenger as an opinion of legit. Carwin in my opinion is a guy who has 1 trick, avoid it and he is lost, he is, in my opinion going to fade away into obscurity much the same way Alexander and Sokadjou have, in my opinion.
    The long and the short of it is that I think basing an opinion on a poor display in a fight where he beat a consensus top 5 or 10 that had beaten him, Big Foot and Fedor in recent times dispite his opponent constantly falling to his back to negate Overeems strengths as fucking idiotic.
    Truth is he just beat a top 5, fuck he MUST suck. There is no way he would stand a chance against the less experienced, less decorated fighters that have just beat Gonzaga and Nelson. I mean so what if he just beat Werdum, Rogers, Duffee and was the K1 champ. It doesnt mean a thing that he has beaten Buetello, Kharitonov, Hunt, and Belfort twice, so what if he thought to be 1of the best strikers in the world by the K1 elite, who cares if Rutten and many other top MMA journo’s believe him to be THE best HW in MMA, so what if most of his victories were infact submissions, it really does not matter that he is ranked as a top 10 or top 5 fighter because I post on 5 oz and I thought he didnt look good against the guy that TKOed Gonzaga twice (Carwins 2nd biggest win imo and in a more decisive way both times imo too) a brazillian bjj world champion a top 5 a guy who has beaten him before and a guy who just ckoked out the guy who many beleive is the best ever fighter to step in the ring. None of that matters because I am a fan and I know that you always base everything on 1fight rather than the overwhelming evidence that suggests that I may either bejumping to conclusions prematurely or that a just dont know what the fuck Im talking about. Its not like he has fought over 40 other times. This 1 fight where he beat a fellow top 10 tells me all I need. . . Err, want to know.
    Thats just my opinion though.

  • MMA-LOGIC says:

    Lets just wait and see shall we? I think some SF fighters will end up fighting UFC fighters but let us just wait and see.
    I am picking Big Foot as the dark horse, as I have from day 1, or Overeem to win but it would not surprise me to see Barnett win the whole thing.
    Im sure the UFC will play this carefully and unless the winner of the tourney signs with the UFC none of the losers will get a shot at a top UFC HW. I’m sure you can work out why.

  • MCM says:

    MMALOGIC says:

    “I am picking Big Foot as the dark horse, as I have from day 1….”

    at least we can agree on something.

  • MMA-LOGIC says:

    Sorry just read Kuch and I agree completely with you, infact you are just making the point I was trying to, that is apart from the fact that I disagree that the HW division is weak. I cant remember who said it but wins and losses are not the most important thing when your career is padded with guys who have a win loss ratio with an ave in the negatives ( more losses than wins) or even 4-3 like Carwins. Hey Carwin may turn out to be a monster Overeem may turn out to be an also ran and Dos Santos may fight a good fighter that is relevant (lol) but my whole point is dont judge fighters on 1 fight and ignore all that has come before or may come after. This is the wise thing to do, of this I’m sure. I am trying to point out that the guys held up as the bench mark can be discredited and just as much if not more than the SF fighters and that to judge fighters as many are doing, based on a victory over a top 5 negatively is really dumb. If that was the case GSP is not that good because he lost to Serra etc. The false logic that people are using is so flawed I feel I need to speak out and say “It is 1 fight that he won against a top 5, not his whole career for fucks sake, not only did it have absolutely nothing to do with the UFC but it is no indication of how he would do agaist them and to suggest it is is foolish”

  • MCM says:

    Back to arguing.

    “I also said Carwin not being legit was opinion, it AGAIN is written right there duhhhhhhh”

    No, it isn’t. You said…

    “Carwin has 1 win over a legit top fighter and his career wins are over guys that have an ave win loss ratio of 11-8. Impressed?”

    That’s not phrased as a statement of opinion. That’s phrased as a statement of fact. As I said, the use of the word “legit” indicates an ability to show proof, and as previously shown, “Proof” in this case is only an indication of more opinion. Until, as superdave pointed out, all top fighters can fight each other. Which is something everyone wants.

    Are you aware that logic has its own practices and methodologies? I only bring logic into this since you have chosen it as your name and continually insinuate that the rest of us lack it.

    You use Duffee as an indication of Overeems achievements yet down play Carwins win over Gonzaga. This indicates that in your OPINION, Todd Duffee, who had a record of 6-1 in MMA when he fought Overeem and no outside combat achievements, is a more “legit” opponent than Gabriel Gonzaga who had a record of 10-3 when he fought Carwin, was a multi-time grappling champion and had only lost to two men in his MMA career. One a current and previous top 10 contender and the other was the then HW champion of the UFC.

    Let’s just agree on one thing…
    Overeem may be over rated. Big Foot may be the greatest HW to ever walk the earth. JDS may have zero ground game. And Cain might get exposed as the can he really is.
    None of this will ever be known until we get the best HW’s (according to popular opinion) together to fight it out. Here’s hoping we can start to answer these questions by next year.

  • boomnutz says:

    yo can I just say that a little argument is good, but you guys went WAYYYYY over board.

  • boomnutz I see top ten arguments need to be battled like 5 round fights..

    1) Me and MCM’s ever present argument about How bad ass Condit is/isnt
    2) Logic with everyone about UFC being weak
    30King Mah Mah’s argument with everyone about everything
    4-10… doesnt even matter

  • MCM says:

    It’s cool boomnutz. I was typing my rebuttal when LOGIC wrote his last post, and if you look at it, we both end up saying the same thing at the end. I don’t take any of it personally, and I don’t think he does either.

    as for superdavenorcal-
    OH HELL NO! You did not just bring Condit up in this bitch!

  • TerribleT says:

    @MMA-LOGIC,I was the only one who’d made a post about the Werdum/Overeem fight when you came out with the statement ,” you ppl don’t know anything about MMA” , in other words,me,right? Clearly a grandiose statement if I’ve ever heard one. Then you went on to state that these same said ppl(me again)were just bias against Overeem and that was the reason we unfairly judged his performance…………not true,I clearly stated in my 1st post that I thought Overeem was a monster and I was sheepishly admitting that I was WRONG,something that we all know you could and would never do. If stats were kept on “thumbs down” and “hidden comments due to low ratings” you without question sir would be far and away in 1st place,light years ahead of whoever was in 2nd. Quite a feat for someone who knows so much more about MMA than everybody else.

  • boomnutz says:

    lol…i stand corrected. Maybe its just Logic’s disdain for the UFC that gets me, and the fact that just about everyone on here argues with him over it!!!

    BTW Condit is a bad ass, not sure whose side i’m taking, but i’m taking it.

    Lastly, who does everyone WANT to win the GP? I think i’m going with Kharitonov, and this is based purely on the fact that he’s probably the only guy I like. Barnett is fat and out of shape and I don’t like his professional wrestling influence, Overeem (I liked until this weekend’s fights), Werdum (I wasn’t a big fan of it, but now hate) and Big Foot Silva I just don’t like his face, ugly bastard.

  • MCM says:

    I want Big Foot to win. I enjoy watching him fight think that he’s the most well rounded fighter in the competition. I don’t know Kharitonov’s personality. I don’t like Barnett. I like Overeem’s personality but like Nick Diaz, I don’t think he’s done enough to earn the reputation he has. I think Werdum is a great fighter, but I just don’t get his humor.

    Personally, I can’t wait till this whole GP thing is over though so the UFC can finally bring these guys in and make a real HW division.
    Barnett – Lesnar
    Barnett – Mir
    JDS – Overeem
    JDS – Kharitontov
    Big Foot – Mir
    Rodgers – Nelson
    Rodgers – Carwin
    Cain – Big Foot
    And that’s just a few of the awesome/entertaining match ups that could happen. Right now, the GP is just something we have to get through until we get to the good stuff IMO.

  • TerribleT says:

    Does anybody besides me think that it would have made more sense for Kharitonov vs. Big Foot & Barnett vs.Overeem? Then the only fight that would have had a long layoff vs.a short layoff would be the final. Since they didn’t care about this when setting the GP up now all the remaining fights could be long layoff vs.short layoff. Unless 2 fighters with the same amount of layoff time both win. Is this an advantage or a disadvantage to the fighters? We’ll never really know will we?

  • boomnutz says:

    Bigfoot’s def. a problem, I still like Kharitonov and if he can get by fat ass Barnett I think he’s well rounded enough to beat Bigfoot way better striker too, and he’s already beaten Overeem, I think Barnett’s the worst matchup for him though.

    And speaking of matchups, I can’t believe you didn’t mention Bigfoot vs Lesnar, I think that’s the first match up signed provided Bigfoot doesn’t win and get a title shot. The shit talking would be great! Plus I don’t think Silva’s striking would make Lesnar turtle up like he did against Cain.

  • MCM says:

    Big Foot – Lesnar
    Griggs – Herman
    Del Rosario – Herman
    Griggs – Mitrione
    Kongo – Cormier
    Barry – OtherReem
    Fedor – Everybody

    Like I said, there’s a ton of ’em.


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